Curse

BahamutKaiser · May 31, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

oh yes you dodge a bullet, if you move out of the way before it is fired, whereas a sword you can dodge, block and even grasp with your bare hands if your skilled enough. NO, at point blank, you cannot dodge a pistol bullet, and thinking you can is sheer ignorance. A rifle may have an unwieldy advantage at point blank, but a pistol does not, and it is much easier for someone to maneuver a pistol then it is a sword, and much easier to dodge a sword then a bullet traveling at or above the speed of sound, as if you get that close, a pistol is more then accurate enough to ensure a dead target before any melee weapon can reach you, including spears.

A line of farmers with swords charging against real warriors in combat are sheep to the slaugter, the effectiveness of a sword still relies on your ability to swing it, the strength and skill placed behind those swings, and whether or not you can defend against it. Even a fireball can be dispursed by a shield, and a lightning shock is very relavent in damage how powerful that shock realy is. But even the most old fashion guns are deadly in the hands of sparcly trained peasants, it takes very little training and even less skill.

As a rather good marital artist myself, if you came at me with a sword it would only provide me with a weapon to kill you, A good fighter isn't defenseless against a melee weapon just because it has leathal capability, but even the greatest masters of martial arts are just as weak and powerless to a gun shot from any person as anyone else, and your very fictional and weak perspective of firepower doesn't change that.

You can argue this into the ground, whether or not your agree doesn't change the fact that what I testify about guns is absolutely true, taken from real life experience and the testimony and education of several real war veterans. A sword can inflict alot of damage, in the hand of a highly trained individual, a gun can kill in the hands of a child. The unparrallelled lack of skill required to load and fire even a firelock compared to the strength, stamina, and training required to actually swing a blade, and all that training doesn't match the power of a gunshot.

No really, if you think old fashion firelocks can't totaly own bows and melee weapons then you can study the history of De Soto and his few hundred conquistadors were able to overcome entire civilizations of Native Americans because of their advantage in weaponry and horses, no amount of Native Americans could beat them, they only left because De Soto died of disease and they couldn't find any sort of fortune.

Your concept of guns in a midevil world is totaly fiction based, and mine is proven by actual history and knowledge of real warfare, drag some more, it is still totaly fake no matter how you struggle to make it work. Guns spell the end of this kind of warfare, and totaly rewrite the physics and fighter choices used, even with magics, it would rewrite the face of warfar as it really does in real life, or it would be totaly fake.

Rikimaru · May 31, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

That's a pretty good argument, but I'm tired of arguing about this. It's a fantasy game, if they want to add something, they can make whatever they want work. If you want to go by realism, with all of the other crazy technology they show in certain areas of the game, like with the dwarves or with the Luxons and Kurzicks, it's pretty unrealistic that they haven't added them already, atleast on NPCs.

Also, if you want to talk about weapon imbalance, this game has axes and giant hammers. Do you know why no one (or atleast most people didn't) use axes or hammers during the time that swords were still used?
Because axes and hammers are probably the slowest and most un-wieldy weapons you could imagine. Ignoring the fact that it's practically impossible to parry with one, they swing so slowly that by the time you wind back one for a swing a decent swordsman probably would have impaled you.
They weren't created for combat, and they made such rediculous weapons that there were only a few ways you could even swing one; especially hammers.

WasAGuest · May 31, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Your concept of guns in a midevil world is totaly fiction based, and mine is proven by actual history and knowledge of real warfare, drag some more, it is still totaly fake no matter how you struggle to make it work. Guns spell the end of this kind of warfare, and totaly rewrite the physics and fighter choices used, even with magics, it would rewrite the face of warfar as it really does in real life, or it would be totaly fake.

Isn't that the point though? Fiction and fake? I mean this is GW, a fantasy based game where we log into have fun and "pretend" to be in a world other than our own. Fake, Fiction and Fantasy are all over it. Adding something real and spinning it into something fantasical is what makes it more fun.
A sword warrior using hundred blades, a ranger using barrage, an ele calling down fire from the sky... what's so far fetched as having some culture having invented a firearm of sorts and implementing it into the fantasy world?

I have a feeling that it wouldn't mean the death of any other character classes and it would be a (the) second ranged fighter we get.

Rikimaru · Jun 02, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I think this is pretty valuable to the point I've been trying to make:
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2...orgeman0ia.jpg
A boss in the Sorrow's Furnace.
Thank you Lyra

linuxnacrot · Jun 02, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

i think its a bad idea to add guns to the game kinda ruins the mood of it. sure its a fantasy game but guns would be way too exagerated...if you want guns go watch some anime or something

Cjlr · Jun 02, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

A line of farmers with swords charging against real warriors in combat are sheep to the slaugter

A line of conscript farmers will be slaughtered by trained fighters regardless of what kind of weaponry they have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

As a rather good marital artist myself, if you came at me with a sword it would only provide me with a weapon to kill you, A good fighter isn't defenseless against a melee weapon just because it has leathal capability, but even the greatest masters of martial arts are just as weak and powerless to a gun shot from any person as anyone else, and your very fictional and weak perspective of firepower doesn't change that.

I'm not an expert on martial arts, but wouldn't an unarmed martial artist be at a disadvantage to an armed one? Even if he disarmed the other, that would only level the field. If I picked up a sword and ran at you with it, I'd have no f-cking clue what I was doing. If a trained knight ran at you he'd be highly skilled with and without the sword. The gunman, if historically accurate, would be completely and utterly defenseless after a single shot. Odds are that shot wouldn't be fatal for hours, even days later, if at all. He takes one shot and he's reduced to a poorly-equipped clubman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

You can argue this into the ground, whether or not your agree doesn't change the fact that what I testify about guns is absolutely true, taken from real life experience and the testimony and education of several real war veterans. A sword can inflict alot of damage, in the hand of a highly trained individual, a gun can kill in the hands of a child. The unparrallelled lack of skill required to load and fire even a firelock compared to the strength, stamina, and training required to actually swing a blade, and all that training doesn't match the power of a gunshot.

I've seen numerous first-hand demonstrations of old muskets. Muzzle-loaded, inaccurate, barrel-clogging sticks. And that's more advanced than even the most developed firearms I would dream of bootstrapping into Guild Wars. Veterans have a lot of valuable experience, and I respect them greatly, but how many can really give an opinion on 16th century warfare?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

No really, if you think old fashion firelocks can't totaly own bows and melee weapons then you can study the history of De Soto and his few hundred conquistadors were able to overcome entire civilizations of Native Americans because of their advantage in weaponry and horses, no amount of Native Americans could beat them, they only left because De Soto died of disease and they couldn't find any sort of fortune.

In almost all cases the Native Americans were defeated by disease or subterfuge. The sole exploit of De Soto's that comes to mind is the so-called "Battle" of Cajamarca. At which Pizzaro, De Soto, and their men used their superior weaponry to massacre thousands of unarmed Incan civilians. Oh, right - he also wandered around "Florida" for a while. Mavila? Mabila? Something like that. Although the Spanish forces had I believe Cannon with them. But I'm not as familiar with that battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Your concept of guns in a midevil world is totaly fiction based, and mine is proven by actual history and knowledge of real warfare, drag some more, it is still totaly fake no matter how you struggle to make it work. Guns spell the end of this kind of warfare, and totaly rewrite the physics and fighter choices used, even with magics, it would rewrite the face of warfar as it really does in real life, or it would be totaly fake.

Funny, I didn't see Medieval guns being too out of place in a Medieval world. I would have an apoplectic fit if GW allowed a pair of .45s swung about by some John Wayne wannabe. But that's not what I imagined when I thought about this thread. I didn't read it all too closely, but Rikimaru's idea didn't seem to suggest that.

saneo · Jun 02, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

i suppose guns would be alright, if they allowed for some form of realism.the only way i could see this class working in guild wars, and maintaining the medieval atmosphere would be to have early flintlocks. i think dual pistols having a shot time equivalent to daggers is totally bogus though, the guns would have to have a long delay between shots.

And one more example of farmers holding off trained warriors, while somewhat expierencied with guns and with a bit more modern guns than those we have been discussing(19th century fire arms), was during the colonization of south africa, the settlers were attacked by 2000 zulu warriors, equipped with spears, clubs, and shields, the settlers not only held off the zulu with 50 guns, they killed every one of the 2000.

As a counter example the zulu also won several victories over the invaders. One battle took place between the zulu and british soldiers. the british learned of a massive attack that would be coming from the zulu. The hundred or so british troops fortified their positions during the day and prepared for battle. the zulu attacked that night once again with spears, clubs and shields. The british troops' muskets would overheat and jam after several rapid volleys, leaving them virtually defenseless while reloading. Compounded on this was the zulu's drug induced illusion of invicibility, essentialy the zulu didn't feel the bullets, and were able to continue fighting after taking one or two hits. The zulu closed in and the british were no match in close quarters to the zulu clubs and sheilds. Club+Shield>bayonet

Edge Martinez · Jun 07, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

They don't have to be in all of the older chapters, I don't even understand that logic. There arent enemies in Tyria using assassin or ritualist skills. I might've missed what you mean.

Sorry for thread necromancy... just back now. Yeah, I think you slightly missed what I meant. Assassins and Ritualists may not be spreading through Tyria like wildfire because they are just other versions of warriors and casters. Sure, some Tyrians may be interested and go all the way to Cantha to learn to fight with knives or call on spirits, but in general, most will just stay at home and learn the good old Elementalist or Monk craft.

On the other hand... if word comes to Tyria that there are these dudes across the sea with weapons you just point at someone and they die, which don't require magic and can be produced with a little know-how, I guarantee you that Adelbern and the Mantle and the jungle people and the Summit and everyone with the means will be trying to acquire them. It should change the face of the game world. Look how quickly guns became the weapon of choice in our own world. Swords and shields became extinct quick. If you want to look at Guildwars as chapters, then sure... guns would not create an imbalance. If you look at Guildwars as a world, the second guns hit the market anywhere, everyone everywhere will want them. Since work on prior chapters is pretty much done, having guns in one place... with characters who can travel freely back to Tyria with them... and not having them everywhere would be unrealistic.

I'm not saying guns are bad, or that the class suggested in this thread is bad. I actually thought it was well thought out in terms of skills and such. I just think that guns are an imbalancing force for this game.

CorstedPirate · Jun 07, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

I might even understand if there was a pirate or seafairing type class that had skills which drew a gun and did some hefty damage, but with the realistic fire rate of an acceptable flintlock type gun, you wouldn't be firing it on a continuous basis of any sort, it would be skill activated only, like a spell, or better yet, a signet.

I rather like that idea. Maybe I just like this cause of the whole pirate idea. Either way, it sounds better and more balanced than a class based on using 2 pistols. It would also fit in to GW a whole lot better imo.

Sure Roland or Clint Eastwood sounds cool, but I don't want either of them coming after me.

Dr Strangelove · Jun 07, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

No actually gun shot wounds to nealy any part of the body is fatal, you might survive the wound, but you don't survive it without medical attention and you don't continue fighting.

And being set on fire is non-lethal (immolate)? How about having an arm lopped off? (dismember). A bear mauling you? (Bestial Mauling). Let's have a contest. I get to light you on fire, cut off your arm and sic a grizzly bear on you. You get a flintlock pistol. Good luck.

To make a historical point, guns did NOT immediatley replace other forms of weaponry. Gunpowder and early cannons existed as early as the Hundred Years War in Europe. They were hardly used as there was little point in shooting someone once when you could unleash a volley of arrows at greater range in a shorter amount of time. Through Napoleonic times, as muskets and cannons were used heavily, soldiers still attached bayonets to their weapons for inevitable close-in fighting. Cavalry used lances and swords to break up musket lines. Someone should inform the Austrian Hussars that they should have been owned by guns. In WW1 soldiers still used bayonets and entrenching tools for combat in the trenches, often preferentially to guns. Even today, military forces are trained in hand-to-hand combat.

Guns do take an awful lot of training to use well. Go tell un untrained person to take a pistol and shoot a target. They will miss. This is why US troops don't take a heck of a lot of hits despite being faced with machine guns. Spray N' Pray just doesn't hit targets in real life. Olympic shooting athletes will be damn upset when they realize anyone could do what they do with 3 months training.

For comparism, some skills in GW are completely non-lethal compared to other attacks ingame. When was the last time a migraine killed you? Have you happened upon a disease that made you drop dead in a matter of minutes? Have you over had a bearded man in a trenchcoat come up to you and touch you, causing death within seconds?

Please understand THE GAME IS NOT REALISTIC. You cannot make any valid arguements on whether guns could kill a magic user because - gasp- magic doesn't exist. neither does Santa or the Mad King for that matter. Let it go. Guns would be cool, many people think so, so why not?

Edge Martinez · Jun 07, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

There is so much wrong with that, that if I dissected it piece by piece, I'd end up sounding like the comic book store guy on the Simpsons.

I can agree to consense, however. If the majority want guns, then hell... let there be guns. People wanted ninjas and A-Net gave them the Assassin.

I can't wait to see how they top that one.

Dr Strangelove · Jun 07, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

People wanted ninjas and A-Net gave them the Assassin.

I can't wait to see how they top that one.

PIRATES! Yaaaarrrrrrrrr

Kung Fu Mother · Jun 07, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Nice man. u shuld have the nobel prise. i really like the idea

unholy guardian · Jul 01, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

i like some of the ideas.. although the rifle skills could use some more. The adrenline thing i really don't like, you have the guns powered by your own energetic human fuel, i thinks that why warriors have it, but idk it just seems they would be more of a energy thing. Still cool overall, although people might be screaming "boom head shoot! over the ts all the time lol"

Rikimaru · Jul 01, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

That is the reason I have it using Adrenaline with the pistols. That's also why the Pistol stance is called Ardent Craze, and why that skill does what it does.
I Guess I can add more rifle skills later. The only reason there aren't as many is that I'm much more interested in the pistols, so it was easier to think up skills for it.

Plastic Cutlery · Jul 01, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I think this is a great idea and this is probably the most well thought out concept I have seen posted here (although I don't check that often)... I really would like to see something like this, and I love the way the primary is like most other primary attributes where it is useful for other classes too (sure this one is pretty much just rangers, but still).

Rikimaru · Jul 01, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I've posted some new Rifle skills. Now Dual-pistols and Rifles have 8 skills each.

I Just realized that since this has 2 different weapon types, it should have 5 attribute lines instead of 4. Does anyone have any ideas on what that 5th skill line should be? right now I'm thinking about having it revolve around creating special ammunition, and making Silver Bullets a part of it. It'd be sort of like how the ranger's Wilderness Survival is mostly preparations, except that these would last for so many shots instead of a certain amount of time.

curtman · Jul 01, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

They would have to look like WOWs to fit in. Old blunderbuss blackpowder guns with long reload times.

Yanman.be · Jul 01, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I like what you did to this type of profession.

/signed

Rikimaru · Jul 01, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I Guess I'll just add an ammunition-type line right now, and replace it if anyone comes up with a better idea.

-Edit- I Like how the Munitions line turned out. There could easily be a team of Gunslingers with one designated to make special ammunition for the rest.